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Adrian Bjerke

Accumap V2 - Finland, Sweden, Denmark sectors

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Hello!

As some people already are aware of, I am a part of the contribution team of accumap, and are mainly responsible for Norway, but now also Scandinavia.

If you already do not know what accumap is;

  • Made as an replacement for vatspy
  • One centralized database, meaning everyone sees the same ATC sectors and nobody has an out of date file.
  • FIR Sub-sectors, meaning you can see what each sector is, rather than seeing the entire FIR online when a controller logs on.
  • System notifications, so you know when your friends are online or when someone squawks 7700.
  • Day and night color modes so you don't get blinded during the night by the brightness.

The new improvements in accumap v2 is the following:

  • Much better performance
  • Less lag
  • Web-based system
  • Support for upper and lower airspace limits, for example an APP that goes upto FL155, and have multiple lower limits will be shown when zoomed in.
  • Better support for runway splits
  • Will show the correct airspace owner, even during splits.

 

Now that you know a bit more about accumap, lets come to the main reason of the thread.

We currently do not have any sectors added for Finland, Sweden or Denmark, and even we could attempt making some sectors for them, it would be nowhere as accurate than with help from local controllers in these countries. There are two ways you can help, the first way is by giving charts and coordinates to me for each CTR/APP position (TWR can also have an airspace if required, for example ESNQ), their upper and lower limits (if none, we just use default), their callsign, sector name and a list in order for who is responsible for that airspace.

Example of ENOS sector 4:
 image.png.33700c4ef17d1210a944960bf494ee3f.png 
Lower/Upper - Default
Callsign - Norway Control
Sector - Oslo AOR - Sector 4
Owners:
ENOS_CTR
ENOS_4_CTR
ENOS_N_CTR
ENOS_6_CTR
ENOS_8_CTR
ENOR_S_CTR
ENOR_CTR

Alternatively you can be added to the contribution team. You will be required to have google earth installed and dedicate enough free time to complete the sectors as accurate as possible.

Example of Oslo Approach with different lower limits:

image.png.c659fca70fd91c42d083ddfbb7d9efc1.pngimage.png.4ae109526aa32aa6fa2bed5247da2fb6.png

In this case we have both the basic version (shown when zoomed out), and the detailed one. Note that, this is not required, and Oslo is currently the only airport with this. Alternatively this can also be used if you have different upper limits in a TMA.

 

If anyone is interested in helping in either way, preferably local controllers, please let me know! If no contribution is given then it will be shown the default version (CTR to whole fir, and APP as circles).

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Nice. It looks like a cool project if it works out!

For Sweden I think that all sectors are available via AIP with coordinates. I can try to help in anyway I can anyways

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4 hours ago, Martin Stockzell said:

Nice. It looks like a cool project if it works out!

For Sweden I think that all sectors are available via AIP with coordinates. I can try to help in anyway I can anyways

If whenever you have time can prepare the charts for the sectors, along with a callsign list in order of who is responsible for that airspace, and if there is upper limits (such as APP or ESMM) that needs to be added, that would be great. There is no hurries, and let me know if you have any questions.

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There is a crapload of coordinates here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4394/ES_ENR_2_1_en
And some pretty descent more graphical charts with sector owners and frequencies here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4105/ES_ENR_6_3-1_en here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4106/ES_ENR_6_3-3_en and here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/3193/ES_ENR_6_3-4_en

The bigger question is, how accurate do we want to be. A lot of sectors are overlapping eachother, and with very few of them (and more like ever) online it will most likely be cluttered and hard to understand for the random Vatsim pilot. If we are able to manage which sector belongs to who, in regard to who acctually is logged on, then perhaps it might work.

What do you say @Martin Loxbo?

Edited by Martin Stockzell

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31 minutes ago, Martin Stockzell said:

There is a crapload of coordinates here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4394/ES_ENR_2_1_en
And some pretty descent more graphical charts with sector owners and frequencies here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4105/ES_ENR_6_3-1_en here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/4106/ES_ENR_6_3-3_en and here: https://www.aro.lfv.se/Editorial/View/3193/ES_ENR_6_3-4_en

The bigger question is, how accurate do we want to be. A lot of sectors are overlapping eachother, and with very few of them (and more like ever) online it will most likely be cluttered and hard to understand for the random Vatsim pilot. If we are able to manage which sector belongs to who, in regard to who acctually is logged on, then perhaps it might work.

What do you say @Martin Loxbo?

Prefer to take those approved by VATEUD, too many and it would just look like a mess. All the sectors added with upper level FL660 will be shown when ESOS_CTR is online for example. Frequencies are not a problem, accumap only cares about the callsign.

Also there needs to include a order of who owns each sector. For example sector N:
ESOS_N_CTR
-- other who may own this sector when ESOS_N_CTR is offline, but before big boss ESOS_CTR --
ESOS_CTR

Please avoid overlapping, accumap do not support this very well. If there are multiple sectors at the same place but different height that will work aslong you provide altitude's. For example
Sector 1 SFC - FL95
Sector 2 FL95 - FL245
Sector 3 FL245 - FL660

Edited by Adrian Bjerke
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In norway these sectors are included:

unknown.png

ENOS_CTR (sector 4)
ENOS_8_CTR
ENOS_N_CTR
ENSV_CTR
ENSV_N_CTR
ENSV_C_CTR
ENBD_S_CTR
ENBD_C_CTR
ENBD_CTR
ENBD_E_CTR
ENOR_CTR/ENOR_S_CTR

 

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Easiest way would be to just parse the .ese file. I actually already done a simple php script a couple weeks ago that successfully created .kml files for Stockholm TMA. It still require some manual input but I will try to put some work into it when I have time.

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14 hours ago, Felix Holmertz said:

Easiest way would be to just parse the .ese file. I actually already done a simple php script a couple weeks ago that successfully created .kml files for Stockholm TMA. It still require some manual input but I will try to put some work into it when I have time.

Great! Because I started with Sector K yesterday and gave up with frustration that the sector-picture was a pain to overlay to Google Earth :)

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1 hour ago, Mikkel Olsen said:

I can help you with the Danish sectors. Which format would you perfer?

I have already got an PM from @Lukas Agerskov, you probably want to coordinate with him. Coordinates, charts, most geo files and .kml files are acceptable, they will anyways be converted afterwards to the correct file type.

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I did some experiments this evening and this is the KML files from the script for all ESOS AoR sectors. I didn't double check that everything is correct but it should be. No callsigns.txt included but will try to work on that also.

The documentation on the website is a bit messy. Is it supposed to be different kml files for different height airspaces or just combine them into one?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=137CBx-CRcj3vllvC4EO24QwXbEgKiVe6

Edited by Felix Holmertz

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Ignore the documentation on the website as thats based on V1 sectors, sectors that will not be usable for V2, if you want I can send you documentation for V2.
We do not use the callsign.txt format in V2, but .json files for each .kml file you provide that includes the following:

Callsign (Sweden Control)
Sector (Sector 1,2,3,4..)
Surface (lower limits)
Ceiling (upper limits)
Basic layout of that sector (mostly used)
Detailed version of that sector with all the lower and upper limits (optional)
Long list of callsigns that are reasonable for that area, starting from the top (just like euroscope works)


Try making it as simple for the pilots as you can, having 50+ different sectors visible just because Sweden is online would look really messy even with just ESOS_CTR online. For _CTR positions I would recommend (if there is alot of lower limits) just combine it to one sector. However I do not know the swedish airspace, and you should make it how you controllers in Sweden find it necessarily. 

image.png.7191a6e03a3ffc473a318392ff3d72be.pngThis is what pilots would see if we included all the sectors you sent me.

Edited by Adrian Bjerke

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Yeah that looks a bit messy. Maybe the best way to go is to only include sectors that cover down to ground.

Please send the V2 documentation and I can have a look at it :)

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There is a sector restructuring in the works for ESMM splits, don't do any unnecessary work for something that is changing in the coming months! 

My opinion is that the Swedish sectors are much more complicated than any of the neighboring countries. Sweden is full of vertical splits which makes it very complicated, too complicated for some controllers even. It makes sense to show the info to pilots if it helps. If it will only confuse people, maybe it is better to leave it at ESOS/ESMM

Edited by Max August Larsson Kuhla

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20 minutes ago, Max August Larsson Kuhla said:

There is a sector restructuring in the works for ESMM splits, don't do any unnecessary work for something that is changing in the coming months! 

My opinion is that the Swedish sectors are much more complicated than any of the neighboring countries. Sweden is full of vertical splits which makes it very complicated, too complicated for some controllers even. It makes sense to show the info to pilots if it helps. If it will only confuse people, maybe it is better to leave it at ESOS/ESMM

Even that it can become very complicated, there is still possible to include the most common splits used in Sweden.

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21 minutes ago, Max August Larsson Kuhla said:

There is a sector restructuring in the works for ESMM splits, don't do any unnecessary work for something that is changing in the coming months! 

My opinion is that the Swedish sectors are much more complicated than any of the neighboring countries. Sweden is full of vertical splits which makes it very complicated, too complicated for some controllers even. It makes sense to show the info to pilots if it helps. If it will only confuse people, maybe it is better to leave it at ESOS/ESMM

The script just take a couple of seconds to run and it reads the .ese file so there is no unnecessary work being done :P

However I also think that leaving it to just ESOS/ESMM is probably the best idea because the airspace in southern part of Sweden is to complex to be shown in a good way. Maybe we could include ESOS K/N/F since they are pretty simple.

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Probably, the most common combinations of ESMM sectors will be

 (1) ESMM_2_CTR / ESMM_CTR covering all ESMM: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, C, K, L, W, Y

image.png.ffc00b05358a44a6dcd536112a960ca0.png


(2) ESMM_5_CTR covering ESMM: 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, C, K, L
image.png.278c0ce3a2a365116e0375056d314ba2.png

(3) ESMM_7_CTR covering ESMM: 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, K, L, W, Y

image.png.562e5fe95c933e05b3c57ca3852662cc.png

(4) ESMM_8_CTR covering ESMM: 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, K, L

image.png.9d32ab6b79c682a289bfe66416399cfb.png

 

However, I agree with @Max August Larsson Kuhla most probably this level of complexity might confuse pilots more than it helps and things get even more complex if several ESMM positions are manned simultaneously. As you can see in the pictures above filled areas are sectors that cover airspace GND-FL285 (roughly speaking) and areas that are outlined covers high airspace FL285-UNL. As you already mentioned and shown the ESOS sectors are rather complex, especially around Stockholm TMA.

Possibly if you display ESMM_2_CTR, ESMM_7_CTR, ESMM_5_CTR and ESMM_8_CTR as one sector it might be a little bit better - but it is much work I can assure you having worked with the ESMM sector the last months. ;)

image.png.194ea683bc8c467459c33edba29b5274.png  image.png.a4f7e16c770a8404611e0e1eace2ff4c.png  image.png.e9b7930d3d8b6cb5e3cd81ae7feb323a.png

image.png.97ec618b32c6199879ec97931192f6b4.png

 

Edited by Hakan Schulz
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So basically, the idea of only making two sectors for pilot information might be the better solution. ESOS and ESMM. Since Vatspy displays ESMM as more or less only the western to southern parts of all the MM-sectors it will still be a biiig improvement :) And to show that Sweden FIR covers a lot of space even east of Gotland, since many pilots seem to think that they leave swedish airspace as soon as they pass VSB :)

Then we can perhaps focus a bit more about TMA, CTR, TIA and TIZ instead (and ATZ! ;) )

 

So the ownership with the way we use it today would be something like:

ESOS (Callsign Sweden Control, Stockholm AOR aswell as Malmö AOR when noone is online)
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR


ESMM (Callsign Sweden Control, Malmö AOR)
ESMM_5_CTR
ESMM_CTR
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR

The problem with this is when someone acctually is online with another callsign, perhaps add ESOS*CTR and ESMM*CTR if that works?

Edited by Martin Stockzell
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38 minutes ago, Martin Stockzell said:

So the ownership with the way we use it today would be something like:

ESOS (Callsign Sweden Control, Stockholm AOR aswell as Malmö AOR when noone is online)
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR


ESMM (Callsign Sweden Control, Malmö AOR)
ESMM_5_CTR
ESMM_CTR
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR

The problem with this is when someone acctually is online with another callsign, perhaps add ESOS*CTR and ESMM*CTR if that works?

If e.g. ESOS_8_CTR is online there will most likely always be someone on ESOS_CTR or ESOS_1_CTR online so I don't think it would be a problem.

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Every callsign that have the whole FIR if everyone else is disconnected needs to be added to the callsign list. If for example ESOS_8_CTR is not added to any sector, then it will never be shown. I would also imagine bigger Swedish sectors such as ESOS N, ESOS K, ESOS F,  ESOS 3 (kinda) could be also included, and would be helpful for events such as fly and see santa. When it comes to the more messy parts of Sweden, I agree on keeping it simple will be the best thing to do.

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I have made kml files for ESOS and ESMM but haven't had time to make any json files. As @Martin Stockzell said the ownership should be:

Quote

ESOS (Callsign Sweden Control, Stockholm AOR aswell as Malmö AOR when none is online)
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR


ESMM (Callsign Sweden Control, Malmö AOR)
ESMM_5_CTR
ESMM_CTR
ESOS_1_CTR
ESOS_CTR

Also attached all the kml files I generated in case anyone has use for it :)

ESOS_CTR.kml

ESMM_CTR.kml

ESAA.zip

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On 6/24/2018 at 1:39 PM, Adrian Bjerke said:

Do we have any files for the approach positions?

Stockholm TMA should be a lot easier to draw up in Google Earth then the entire ESAA ;) Let me see what I can do. Unless @Felix Holmertz can convert the already correct ES-files again :)

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